How students are taught is a critical component of education that is often misunderstood. In this episode, we discuss pedagogy, the practice of teaching, and the methodology used to influence children’s learning and development. It is essentially the how and why of teaching, a foundational element that can drive all the other components of transforming education.  

We’ll be joined by guests who share their perspectives as students, educators, and coaches on the impact and importance of having a pedagogy that truly centers student voice, choice, and learning.  

Let us know what you’d like to hear us discuss on future episodes by scrolling down and taking our survey!

Questions? Email us at podcast@techaccess.org.

Trish: Hi, I’m Trish Millines Dziko, Co-founder and Executive Director of the Technology Access Foundation, also known as TAF. Welcome to Learn More, a podcast designed to give you an up close and personal view of our public education system through the eyes and experiences of a critical friend. That’s us, TAF.

We started our journey in 1996. We partnered directly with educators and administrators in Washington State Public Schools, helping them create healthy and safe learning environments that center student voice and cultivate students into socially conscious and self-aware critical thinkers, problem solvers, ideators, creators, and leaders.

We’ve had amazing experiences with our public education colleagues, and we continue to learn a lot. If we’re going to do right by our children and improve public education, it will take all of us, whether we have kids or not. Each episode will be hosted by yours truly, or my colleague Denise McLean, who is the Director of Professional Learning at TAF.

We’ll call on various educators, students, administrators, family members, and community members to share their experiences. We’re creating a learning space by providing a place for you to respond to each episode. We’ll use your comments to dive deeper into education issues that impact you. We’re so excited you’re here to learn more.

In this episode, we’re going to talk about pedagogy, which is basically the methods teachers use to teach and to ensure that every student has their needs met. Our co-host, Denise McLean, who is our Director of Professional Learning here at TAF, is going to take you through this journey. Hey, Denise.

Denise: Hello, Trish.

Again, former educator, and it’s important to me when we talk about project-based learning. I was lucky enough as a student to go to a project-based learning high school and that has changed the trajectory of my life and my view as an educator. I’m excited to talk about this particular topic today and really hone in on how project-based learning is one of the most equitable pedagogical approaches you can take when you do it right. So, pedagogy is how you teach. It’s not curriculum, but it’s how you deliver curriculum. Every teacher subscribes to a pedagogy, whether it’s their own, or their teacher’s. Or one that is chosen by their school or district.

A lot of the times what we will see is a pedagogy or an approach to learning where students are kind of seen as empty vessels that we are imparting knowledge upon. Whereas project-based learning. is inherently student centered and takes what students know, experience, believe, and, and want to explore their interests and their passions as sort of the primary leverage for learning, right?

It’s a primary tool for the learning process, so students are inherently part of the whole process of learning as opposed to being part of it. Being taught upon, I guess, is a way you could phrase it. So, public school teachers adhere to learning standards and use curriculum that may be provided by their district or school to teach those learning standards and use various forms of assessment to determine how well students have learned what has been taught.

Learning standards are what students should know at each grade level in math, reading, writing, science, social studies, etc. Common Core standards were introduced in 2010 and so many states use those standards to determine what students should learn and how they are assessed, while there are also many states who did not adopt Common Core and so those are developed by their state agencies.

Schools rely on curriculum, usually adopted at the district level, to cover those learning standards throughout the course of the school year. Student learning is assessed in multiple ways, which include in classroom tests, standardized tests and teacher designed assessments.

Teachers at our partner schools subscribe to the STEMbyTAF model that has a pedagogy rooted in equitable practices through project-based learning and instruction, interdisciplinary thinking and student-centered classrooms. to give us a different perspective. We’ve invited TAF’s director of TransformEd, Dr.

Malesia Britt and Stephen Kwan, TAF board co-president and alumni of TAF’s first after school program to join us for this episode. Today, we have TAF’s director of TransformED, Dr. Melissa Britt, here in our fancy little studio. So, welcome Dr. Britt.

Thank you. So, okay for this episode we’re going to be talking about pedagogy.

So, let’s start with pedagogy. The obvious like what is pedagogy term gets thrown around a lot. It can mean a lot of different things to different people depending on their context, their role and their intent. Pedagogy is essentially when we’re talking about it, the practice of teaching and the methods that are used to influencing the learning and development of children.

It’s the how and why of pedagogy. Of teaching and we’ll talk more about the what in the next episode when we discuss curriculum and content. So real quick, Dr. Britt, we can have a little like chat here and trip down memory lane of thinking about a class that you were really engaged in. Even if it wasn’t your favorite subject, what do you remember about it and what was special about it for, for you?

Dr. Britt: A class that I’ve, I’ve taught or a class that I’ve been in? A class you’ve been in.

Denise: Oh.

Dr. Britt: Really special about it. I think the, the opportunity to actually recognize our identities and how, you know, it shows up in a classroom. So it, it was my junior year. United States history, just, you know, at times it can just get real boring, right?

Those of us that have taught in social study spaces and, and you just see a bunch of faces staring back at you. But this particular year the teacher that I had, Mr. Ryder, shout out to Mr. Ryder, wherever you are in life. Thank you. Because you were the one that ultimately led me to you. Who I was at that stage in my life.

And so I think just like the identity revelation, not so much formation because I, you know, who I am is who I’ve, it’s, it’s in here, right? And it’s in all of the Children. And so I think that It different stages in our life that that revelation comes where we are like, Okay, this is who I am. And this is who I am in the larger context of society.

And how can I contribute to that? Right? How do I contribute to that? If I’m not already thinking of that? And just taking like a introspective and retrospective view of you, right? And so through his methods through his pedagogy that he decided to adopt that was different from the rest of the school we were able to really inform his practice.

Like, we were his test subjects. We were the lab, like, he wasn’t a science teacher, but we were the lab rats and like, he really valued our voice. He valued the things that we wanted to get into and how. And so I think that for me, it changed the trajectory of even what I decided to go to college for.

So it was cool.

Denise: Kind of in a similar vein for me, I had a teacher in high school whose name was Mr. Hubbell, who unfortunately has, has passed since then, but rest in peace, Mr. Hubbell. But his as again as a social studies teacher, he was very much kind of similarly in line, like very much setting the stage for us to explore concepts of history and social studies in real context and like make our understanding of the world around that as opposed to telling us what it should be.

And just giving us the space to. To analyze and to kind of think outside of traditional boxes and really pushing us to do that I think, like, transformed, like, my thought process about, like, what is education and teaching and, and what it means to be, like, quote unquote, well educated. Right, right. So, all that speaks to pedagogy and, like, how we do things, right?

Yeah. So In that vein, if, if we want to truly educate students so they become self aware, socially conscious, critical thinkers, problem solvers, ideators, creators, leaders, the ideal pedalo pedi excuse me, pedagogical practice You got it. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Should enable students to use their passions, their interests, and values to drive their learning.

Thank you. Students would dive deep into topics, issues, and problems rather than rush through lessons and units in the pursuit of broad coverage. They’d use their knowledge and skills to solve problems and contribute to their community. So we really don’t have the time necessarily in this podcast to deeply unpack the history of public schools and education in the U.

S., but Oh yeah, no. No, yeah, no. Both Five hours later. We still, yeah, I

Dr. Britt: know. Three days later.

Denise: But we, we dominantly see this legacy of factory education, right? Kids rotating subject to subject where there’s very little connection or crossover between the skills and the content being covered, either explicitly or implicitly, with the intent of developing them as, quote unquote, productive citizens.

Dr. Britt: Right. Right. And so, like, I think even when we think of productive citizens, that’s another loaded term in terms of like, what is it in today’s society? Right? Like, we know what it was like, I’m not going to shout out my age, but like, we know what it was then. Right? But you didn’t know when you were in the moment, what it actually was.

You got to that again, after you were out of that seat. So after I left junior year, and now I’m in college, now I’m coming upon the realization of what You know, a productive citizen means and so like we’ve got, you know, advancements in technology that are asking for, you know, different skills and tools.

And so we’re requiring more of students, but we’re not necessarily equipping them with the necessary skills to do the more right. Like, I think we say the more you know, communication and collaborative skills. Those are also in high demand. But again, what what are the conversations like when you’re in the classroom space?

What does collaboration look like in the classroom space? And so I think even our lack of being able to set the stage for the more but asking for the more is Us then saying, Okay, well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna silo, you know, my content away from your content, because then I can adopt this pedagogy of compliance, right?

And so now we’re moving away from even just focusing on students, and we’re focusing on the like, the necessary things that have to be done, and how I can get those done without chaos, right? And so adaptability goes out the window, problem solving skills, right? And so like, they’re not able to. Come into the realization and navigate society where things change, right?

And whole industries like we’ve had things come up. We’ve had things go away, right? And so like just in that blink of an eye students are not equipped to get into the workforce. Right. And so it’s becoming harder for them to keep up with changes, and it’s becoming harder for our new teachers that we’re even sending out, you know, from these prep programs to prepare and plan for these types of classes that are going to, you know, cover like this.

This list of standards that change all the time and the specific requirements for testing. Dun, dun, dun. Always, always back to testing. Right. And so just to like get into like the package curriculum that is trying to be a panacea for everything and No. Trying to cover all standards, right? Within a school year, whether you are year round, nine months, in those hundred, you know, 180 days, you are on a path, right?

And you cannot veer from that path because then someone is going to come tell you that, hey, your students are behind based off of this path that we’ve laid out for you. And it, and it isn’t engaging, right, and we’re not thinking about the students that are looking back at us, even when we adopt these curricula, right, like we are like, Oh, well, this is going to do the things that it needs to do, and it’s going to do it in a certain time frame, and everyone in the classroom is like, Well, Sure.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Britt: Maybe. Right. But do they believe it? And I think the, the moment they start to learn is the moment that they believe something is actually going to do something. And so we’ve already fallen short there, so I don’t want to lose you on that. Right. And we’re going to be able to unpack this more in our, in our convo.

Right. Right. Right. But I won’t be on the curriculum episode, so that’s fine. Teachers are are provided with like these prescribed lessons, they’ve got scripts, and I don’t, I don’t know about you. Like it takes away from even my authenticity, right? Like if you hand me a script, I’m still thinking of ways where how do I show up, right?

How do I learn from this? And, and what are my students going to be able to learn from this? And I just think that the, the curricula that we decide to adopt, whatever year we decide to adopt it that is lost.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Britt: The authenticity of the educator and we’re, we are also stripping the authenticity of the student.

And so that’s, that, that’s another issue. They’re provided with little support for implementation of that. So if you have not figured out who you are as an educator and you’re like, okay, no one is showing me how to then use this thing, right? This thing that you bought. I’m, I’m going to sound like a robot.

And I’m not going to have any feelings in this, and I’m going to be looking for ways that I can get it done in the time frame that they’ve given me and not veer too far from it, because again, that, that scary word, chaos, comes in. But, but those of us that know and have been in classroom spaces, there is no classroom without chaos.

Denise: Yeah, right. I think we were, we were, you know, talking about in terms of like that framing of that. Organized and or beautiful chaos, right? Like, what’s the beautiful chaos? Where, where’s that healthy ground of kids have flexibility and freedom and understand like the why of their learning and and have the necessary how mechanisms, right?

Right. And their teacher has the how and the why in a, in a clear way and can communicate that. And sometimes I think that’s where we get into this like conversation of curriculum, right? And, and what is the support around that and in this. In this vein of creating an equitable school system or like we could we all have the same tool, but are we creating equity or are we reducing to a lowest common denominator, right?

Are we like trying to create that? And it’s not necessarily having the impact that we are are Intending to see so obviously there’s like a conflict between this meeting this huge range of student learning need using these primarily standardized measures of assessment and determine whether or not they like meet these standards that have been set.

So, obviously, Taft’s sort of argument, we can, we can argue about the need for standardized tests and, like, whether they, whether or not they have their place, but the whole point of these tests is to remove as much context as possible for students, ignoring the fact that context is how we learn. Right. Our context is significant in our learning process, so it’s, it’s an integral component to a true student centered learning.

Pedagogy,

right?

Denise: So teachers are encouraged and directed to use lots of different strategies to help students build skills and to learn. They use scaffolding mechanisms, differentiation, and those are all common terms that we talk about when we when we refer to high quality instruction. But how? Why do those ideas of context and student focus dissipate when we start talking about assessment?

So that’s like a another kind of big piece when it comes to pedagogy Like how are we determining if someone has learned the things we’ve said are important for them to learn? so With all that like as the context. So you are now here and you are going to tell us all your thoughts Yes, and so We’re gonna move kind of into this part where you tell us more a little bit about you and and your role with and history With TAF.

So just tell us a little bit about what you do now as the director of transform ed and Kind of how you got here.

Dr. Britt: Okay. So I think this, this position in general along with the department and you know, the organization as a whole is like a, an evolving, it is evolving. And so I think in terms of what I, I thought my role was and moving into what it is now at the current state of where we are in this, in this larger system.

So trans, the director of transformation is really looking at the current state of the school. But not only that, the current state of the, the teaching practices at the school, the current state of the educational practices at the school the current state of the community, the current state of the district.

And so there are a lot of assessments that have been made over the year. And then I think continue to be To be made to then say, this is how we are responding. I think that, you know, originally when the position was created transformation was not a living, breathing thing, right? Like I think it was something that you could use a particular measurement and say, this is how it’s measured and then go on and do the next thing.

But I think this year has opened up my eyes. To a new mindset of looking at transformation and how we are going about transforming all of those things and it’s living in its breathing and a community couldn’t and can experience a a downturn in something. It can experience you know, students like test scores that are really impacting, you know, just their, their mindsets and how they’re looking at the future.

It can impact how teachers are responding to collaborations and partnerships. It can, like, whatever it is, we are now looking at, like the community And the community school from a holistic perspective. And so I think that’s the evolution that has happened for me in this role. And so I’m still, I’m still learning and I’m still growing.

And so like I could give you an outdated response, but I think for me, I’m learning while everybody else is learning. And I want to make sure that, you know, we, we’re, we are response to the challenges and not, Hey, well, we have a solution. I’m growing, I’m understanding, and I’m, I’m recognizing things just like the community is.

Denise: And how do we use that kind of like knowledge of that community? How do we take that into account as we are working and engaging with administrators and teachers, right? In talking about like, how do we change the practices? In that space. Yes. Or alongside, right? Like, yeah, like power over versus power with.

Right, right. And say we are

Dr. Britt: partners. Yeah, we are partners. And we partner with the entire community. Right? So we don’t just stop at the school, we partner with the community. And so like, even through our pedagogy, we are, you know, contextualizing education with those relevant communal experiences. We are looking at social and cultural capital.

And we’re saying, okay, it exists in this community already. How can we partner with it? How can we leverage it? How can we use it to, to bring about changes and transformation in this space?

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Britt: So speaking

Denise: of sort of like the TAF, I can’t, I have a hard time with this word, pedagogical approach. I apologize.

Obviously more coffee necessary. So how would you describe TAF’s pedagogy? Like, how does that approach to learning compare to what you see primarily, or you see dominantly, in public education.

Dr. Britt: So I think the The short answer, which is some of the, some of the issues that we have come up against, the short answer is that it’s project based learning.

The long answer is that on top of project based learning, what we are looking at, right, is being able to then incorporate equity centered education that student voice and agency The STEM integration comes into focus, but more around like this holistic way of interconnectedness. We, again, we’re partnering with not just the school, right?

Like we are contextualizing learning. Through the whole community. Right. And so there are those real world life experiences that are happening. We are looking at ways to facilitate, right? Because again, we are not the possessors of, of, of knowledge, right? We are, we are a vehicle of that to, to transpire in these spaces.

So thinking critically, right? The inquiry that takes place. It’s more than us saying, okay, well, we do project based learning so that you can do a project. No, we do project based learning so that again, if we go back to like that informed or productive citizen. Now we’re looking at again, how you are able to then impact the larger society.

Right? And so, like, yes, it is project based learning, but it’s also problem based learning. It is adaptive based learning. It is play based learning. It is, so all of the things that get students out of a seat or out of the mindset of rote memorization We’re, we’re able to impact that and model the things that we have learned, right, as adults, but then also partner and again, leverage the knowledge of these students.

Denise: And that really speaks, I think, to Something that we talk about a lot is like PBL isn’t the product, it’s the process, it’s, it’s the how, right? Like, yes, there is a final deliverable, there’s a final piece, but that’s not what it’s about, it’s because that’s not where the learning happens, the learning happens throughout, and so that’s like a very common thing.

That’s a phrase that we use that I think sometimes is really hard to like visualize and understand. And it has really strong outcomes for students when we, when we frame it in that way. What are some of the core ways that you work with schools or your team, right? So you and your team work with schools and districts to make those sort of shifts in pedagogy for transform ed schools.

Dr. Britt: So. We, we are definitely a tiered approach. We work all the way up, all the way down. And, and through the partnership of being able to, to work together through that approach. We are providing coaches in schools. And so those coaches are working with teachers, they’re working with administrators, they’re working with students.

Right. And so, like, we’re looking at that school, that school focus. And then as we, as we go up on this tier or as we go down on this tier, we’re looking at community assets, right? And so our, our coaches that are provided to these schools are looking at ways again to leverage that social and cultural capital.

by working with students, by working with teachers. And so we’re looking at their current pedagogy and we’re saying, okay, what are, what are ways that you can start to learn and implement this pedagogy, this pedagogical approach, right? What are, what are more ways that you can incorporate student voice and choice?

Like, what are ways that you can model that through the curriculum that you’re chaos, right, that we keep coming back to the chaos that can happen in a classroom, but then can ultimately bring more of like this organized approach where students are saying, This is a way for me to fix a problem. This is a way for me to respond to the injustices that take place in a classroom.

And so that’s our coach approach. And then, And then we’re addressing things at a district level. And so we are partnering with our superintendents. We’re partnering with our deputy supes. We’re partnering with, you know, the curriculum team to even say like, what are like smaller ways that we can have a larger impact?

Right? So those are, those are some of the ways that we are. Partnering and trying to transform these school spaces all the way up and, and all the way down to our parents and the parental involvement that takes place when students are, you know, showcasing the, the work that they have.

Denise: What do you find are some like common conflicts or kind of barriers in your work in partnership?

And how do you address those?

Dr. Britt: Barriers and conflicts. I like it. It’s as a, as a millennial. No. I wanna say people are so, they love the past

mm-hmm .

Dr. Britt: And they like doing things a certain way. And, you know, you coming in as a, a trailblazer and a pioneer and you’re like, Hey, we could do it this way and you could probably reach more students.

And some people are like, no. No, we’ve done it. We’ve done it this way. And we’re gonna do it this way. And we might make some minor tweaks. But ultimately, you and your trailblazing pioneer, you know, ideas, please go away. And so I think it’s it is the barrier is the mindset. And it is, you know, the mindset that this system works for everybody.

Yeah. When in actuality, it works for no one. Because again, if we go back to looking at, and I’m, I’m more so like, yes, you can be a productive citizen, but you also need a, you need to be an informed citizen. And, and information comes from so many different streams that, you know, That creates the productivity, right?

When you are informed, there is then this way that you’re saying, now, this is how I can be productive. Might not always be the best approach, but you’re thinking through the ways to, to do that. You’re not just sitting and it’s a passive like you’re a consumer of information versus now you’re trying to make change.

Now you’re trying to shake up something. And so I think the barrier for me is people like the past.

Denise: I think it’s also hard when we, when we’re working with people or we’re talking with, with educators who, who,

So it’s, it’s often hard to visualize something different when you’ve never experienced it, like either as a learner or even as an A professional, right? If like I haven’t seen it, I don’t know how to replicate that or I didn’t experience it as a kid or or whatever. This is just like I’m replicating things I’ve already done or or things that I did as a kid, right?

Like I remember doing X assignment in school, so now I’m going to do it again, right? And that’s that’s a pretty common thing. And because it’s just like that cyclical process, yes. Right? So it is really hard, and I totally empathize with that. I totally understand it. And how do we show so, so that mindset thing can change?

So we can say, like, there is another way that may be more effective than what you have experienced. Like, and that’s not to say maybe you didn’t, you did or did not have a good educational experience. It’s more about, like, it may not be necessarily about you specifically, but thinking about the kids in your room who may have a different, kind of, mindset.

background and context and experience than you, right? Right. I think

Dr. Britt: it’s, it’s, again, it is a mindset shift. Yeah. Because I think when we have faith in something, we, we have a belief about it. And if you believe that You know, curriculum is a solution. Then that’s where you’re gonna put your efforts, right?

If you believe that, you know, project based learning is going to be something that can can wake up education in your classroom, then you’re gonna believe that the things that I’m doing are are adding to the change that needs to take place. But if you don’t have faith in a thing, Then you don’t believe in it.

Right. And so I think there are a lot of teachers that I think you pointed out, like, this is how it’s been done.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Britt: And this is what I saw instead of stepping out on that ledge and saying, okay, but I didn’t even like it then. Right. Like, when we think back to some of our, like, we could take a poll and, you know, some teachers will be like, well, I didn’t like it then.

It’s like, but, but I noticed that. That you do that.

Denise: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that really, like, kind of moving into to our next piece, like for, for TAF, we’re pretty explicit about PBL being a vehicle for racial equity in a classroom. Like that’s, that’s our mission. That’s our, our vision and our, our whole thing, right?

It’s our whole statement. Right. And so my question for you now is how do you see PBL as a vehicle for. Addressing racial bias and barriers for students of color. I,

Dr. Britt: I think it, it actually drops the question off in their lap, right? So I think through this approach, it’s, it’s not only equity centered, it’s also trauma informed.

Because you have so many students that are, that, you know, when, when a curriculum comes out or a textbook or, you know, just any of the material that, you know, has been presented in front of you, you don’t necessarily see yourself. And I think project based learning and, and our particular approach allows the student to be seen and heard, right?

And so, and, and it’s dropping again. The problem that exists is them coming to recognize it, like with the approach, we’re not saying, hey, these are all the problems that we listed out in your community, fix them. No, they actually have to go through this inquiry process, this critical thinking process, this contextualized process to say, yo, I’ve noticed that.

There’s a lot of poverty in my area. And, and now we’re incorporating other subjects in, right, to this problem that exists, that students are coming to the carpet and recognizing, and then saying, what are some ways that we can start to tackle poverty? These challenges, right? And so you’re looking at it from a, a social lens, right?

And so we have our social studies teachers that can then give you context around how long has this issue been, been an issue, right? How long has this been something that has maybe plagued a community, plagued a school plagued a nation, right? And so now you’re able to take your social studies skills and you are bringing that to the carpet.

What is it going to take if it is a, you know, economic issue now we’re looking at the type of math skills that need to come in and you’re saying, okay, this is something that it would take to maybe fix this issue. So now our social studies teacher and our math teacher are having a conversation, your writing skills.

So say maybe one of the solutions that you came up with requires you to write some things. It requires you to. Think through maybe a possible solution, because again, even our students are coming to the carpet, not saying, well, this is going to be the end all be all. This is the panacea for the problem. No, they’re coming with ideas.

And so they’re already ideating, which is opening up their mind to additional ideas, right there. They are expanding even their understanding of what the issue is. And now we’re adding our, our English teachers. We are adding in other content for this interconnectedness for students to say, Oh, okay, so when I’m in science, I’m also learning math.

When I’m in math, I’m also learning English. When I’m in English, I’m also learning social studies. It’s

Denise: almost like they’re connected in the world. Yes. Interesting. Yes. Interesting. Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Britt: I like the way you put that.

Denise: Sorry. But it is like, it is this idea that you’re, we are not learning in a silo. No.

Like, we don’t exist. as humans in a silo and and schools exist in a silo. And so when we break down that barrier, not only are we validating the experiences that students have beyond a classroom, we validate their, their ways of knowing, their ways of being. And, and they’re like, The, the knowledge of their community, right?

Not just in terms of your academic learning, but like your contextual social, your social and your understanding of the world and like understanding communities deeply and richly and being able to use your knowledge and skills to solve problems for the betterment of a community, right? Which is like, I think, like the ideal And, and I that’s what I think of when I think of like, quote unquote, I hate the phrase like productive citizen, but like, that’s, that’s what we’re, we’re saying.

Right. And

Dr. Britt: You’re,

Denise: you’re

Dr. Britt: giving them, like, you are giving them purpose, right? And not to say that they didn’t already have it. Again, like, we, our identities are, are within us. It’s validating. We have to recognize, right? Like, I’m not forming anything in you. You’re gonna realize And, and, and come to that revelation yourself.

But like, now there is purpose to your education, which when we talk about even adult learning, I need to know why I’m doing the thing that I’m doing and, you know, our, our pedagogy is allowing that to happen in multiple spaces. It’s, it’s an, it’s an affirming process. Yes. It’s. It’s

Denise: affirming and validating.

Say that. Yeah. No, say that. It is though. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like that is what helps set students up to, to have, and I mean, we talk a lot about like confidence and self affirmations when we talk about students and learning. And so like, I think, you know, Having moments where it’s like, I did that thing, that’s a thing I did, and it was really hard, but I got through it, and I came up with something that I feel passionate about, right?

That ignites something in, in students, and I think ignites something for teachers too, right? Like being able to witness and see and foster that is, is powerful. And The more we can try to create experiences like that for kids, the better off I think we are. And so, kind of, first of all, thank you for everything.

Yeah. Thank you for all of your insights. Thank you. This is very, very thoughtful, very clear on how, what we are trying to do, and the why behind it. We have another guest whose name is Steven Kwan. Stephen Kwan is a former participant in our technical teens internship program, and he is going to tell us more about his experience and what impact that had on him.

So thank you again, Dr. Britt. Thank you. Appreciate you. All right. So today we have Stephen Kwan here at the podcast. Welcome to our incredibly sophisticated room. I didn’t

Steven: even know this room existed. I

Denise: know. Now it is. Now it is here and it is beautiful. So you have kind of a, a long and storied history with TAF.

Trish: Huh.

Denise: I like that. It was like, yes, yes I do. So we’ll just start with, can you tell us a little bit about your current role?

Steven: Okay. At TAF.

Denise: Yeah, at TAF and, and in your full professional life. Yeah.

Steven: Okay. I am currently one of the co chairs of our board of directors for the organization. And also when I’m not doing work with TAF, I am a full time software engineer currently at a company called Remitly.

And I’m the tech lead for a team that does the web experiences for customer service agent tools.

Denise: Great. Great, great. And so we, you’re speaking to your kind of history with TAF, we’re going to go on a little Historical journey, journey to the past. So back in 1999 1997 when TAP opened, its first program was called the Technical Teens Internship Program, or we’ll probably refer to it as TTIP through this conversation.

So, TTIP was a after school program for high school students focusing on teaching programming, web development, media production, and other tech skills with the primary focus of getting summer internships. So can you tell us a little bit about your time in the TTIP program and kind of like when you were in it, what you did, and why did you end up joining?

Steven: Yeah, so I was just doing some math in my head, but I’ve been involved with TAF for I think 22 years now Which is like two thirds of my life Which then I have to remind myself how old I am, but I joined I think the summer of 2003 leading into high school and the reason why I joined actually was because there was another friend of mine at my middle school who had found out about TTIP and TAF.

And the biggest selling point at that point for us was that TAF was giving 1, 000 scholarships for every year of TTIP that we completed. And so she got us the application and I filled it out, did the interview, met Trish and Sherry through like the interview process for that as a like 13 or 14 year old kid.

And then. When I got into the program, the first summer, we basically were locked in a very hot room at the 23rd and forget what, the 23rd Avenue, like the central district location, did a summer program there and then during the school year did the after school stuff and then that following summer I had my first internship at one of the law firms in downtown Seattle.

And then I repeated that process four more times all throughout that process, I did the programming track and I did the and so I learned a little bit about what it took to do software engineering, but I think the other part of it that you didn’t didn’t touch on yet was that like they did a lot with just like teaching us soft skills and also like getting us ready for this whole big world called getting, getting, getting into college.

Right. So, yeah, I did that for four ish years, I think. And all throughout that process, I was also a part of a program called the TAF Ambassadors, and that was like a smaller group of us that were a part of TTIP that did a bunch of outreach stuff and also tried to do like activities for the, the TTIP students as a whole.

Yeah, after that, I went to college and was still sort of involved throughout during my undergrad. And then I went on into my whole like grownup big boy job and started coming back a little bit more volunteering. And then eventually I was asked by one of the other board members, if I would like to join the board.

Denise: And now, and now you are here. Now

Steven: I’m here and I think I’ve been on the board for Six years. I don’t know if the pandemic makes counting time a little bit odd.

Denise: Time is is meaningless. So it’s fine It all makes sense, but I think

Steven: six maybe seven years now. Yeah.

Denise: Yeah for a while I think definitely like I’ve worked here for about six years and I’m pretty sure you’ve been on the board since I’ve started working on this side of of the school partnership work, but You Yeah, I mean, thanks for touching on the, the college part two.

I was gonna kind of follow up on that and say, like, what, what do you think are some of, like, the core things you, you learned in that that you found really helpful? And what was that experience like?

Steven: The experience of applying for college with TAF’s help?

Denise: Of the, like, training and, like, the, the, the support you got from TAF to, like, be prepared for that kind of

Steven: process.

Oh, I, I, like, cannot emphasize how important that was to just, like, the trajectory, trajectory of my life. but also of my family’s life. So I have two younger siblings and they’re not in TAF but they were sort of like honorary kids of TAF because everything that I did or knew of, or even like having, having time spent with like Trish and Sherry, my brother and sister also got that as well.

But when I say it changed it was like monumental and that changed the trajectory of my life. I mean that in the sense that like, Growing up, I’m a kid of two immigrants. My parents don’t speak very much English. They came here with like really no context of like what it meant to be in the U S aside from like, they were getting like providing us a better opportunity.

But they because of their limited education because of their limited language skills and also because of just like the work that they were Doing my dad’s a cook and my mom’s a seamstress by profession they Couldn’t actually help us all that much when it came to like understanding what the process looked like how to get financial aid how to like Do all these things that we need to do in order to, like, be competitive when it came to applying for college and TAF was where TAF stepped into stepped in and filled all those gaps that they, the folks that were a part of TAF at that time that were a part of the college readiness aspect aspects of the program FTTIP, they helped contextualize and also just like push us to go and look for these these Like scholarships and like the school tours and school visits and whatnot.

And they even took us on some of those field trips to go check out some of the campuses that are in the area. So all of that, what it really meant was that like, during that time that I was a part of TTIP and also for my brother and sister, we understood like what it would mean for us to make sure that we had the best CV possible and also Thought about how we can make, set ourselves apart when it came to applying, writing our stories, finding the money for it, and ultimately like getting into college and how to survive as a part of that.

And I think one thing that like maybe didn’t click in my head that was clicking my head at that time, but later did was being a part of DTIP also taught me what it meant to look for community in places like UW, which is where I went for college. And figuring out how to like tap into that community to understand how to like succeed in that space.

TTAP, I think was like super crucial in that and how they ran their curriculum, but also how they create that community when it came to like, we’re all going to college guys.

Denise: And I think that’s such a, like a big part of, of why the TAF was really established as how do we help kind of demystify that process and those pathways to get to that end game of how do you diversify sort of the tech field here in Seattle and, and help provide that access.

Cause it is such a like crazy process. Right. There’s so many things that if you just don’t know, or you don’t have a guide to help you, you’re, you’re never going to navigate well.

Steven: Yeah. I think that was the other element too. So like that was, so the first part I talked about, I talked about was like the college readiness aspect.

Then the part that’s true to Taff’s like name of the tech, tech access part of it was the, a lot of the curriculum and also the time that I spent in the program was also opening up the doors and like showing me what it would look like to have a career or even just like Opportunity in the tech tech space.

And I think my internships were, I think the most valuable parts of of that educational process of just like putting me in a space where I could see what it would look like for me to actually be there for a job. And so that part was really cool, but also just like, in hindsight, I don’t think like, When I was in that moment, really understood like the gravity of like what it meant to be in those spaces and also have those introductions be made for made to me around just like, this is what tech looks like.

This is what programming looks like. This is what the whole process of software development looks like. Because I take a lot of those lessons into like my day to day, even today, when it comes to like, how do I show up at work and actually advocate for something that I want? And respectfully disagree with people.

Denise: It’s a core skill. It’s a good skill. Yeah. I think based on what you were talking about just then and talking about your internships, is there like one thing, and this is just a follow up question, one thing or story or like moment you remember from your internships that like stands out to you as something that was really important for your learning process or just even like a favorite memory you have?

Steven: Hmm, there’s a couple that come to mind. So like my first two internships were not as technical and then my last two were much more technical. So my first two were at the law firm and the last two were at Microsoft through their their high school internship program. At the law firm, one memory that like really stuck out to me was So like, at the law firm one I was spending a lot of time, you know, helping lawyers and their in their imaging department, just turn all these like dossiers and these giant files into PDFs.

And in that process I realized, wow, there’s a lot of paper they’re going through. How are they actually going through and like searching through any of this stuff? And so, I worked with the person that was a part of the imaging department to go and figure out like, Hey, can we apply this thing called OCR, I can’t remember, optical character recognition to all the PDF files and see like whether or not we can make them more useful.

And so part of my job was also babying all these like processes to like get those things like OCR so that they can search through these documents. And for some reason to me, like, it seemed like, Oh, this is really basic. I just click these buttons and it will do the thing. Cause I’m not actually transcribing these.

But it was like, I guess the word was revolutionary to some folks. That’s literally what

Denise: I was thinking. I was like, revolutionized law firms. Well, I think they

Steven: were already doing it to some degree. But like, I was just doing it to every one of the documents that came through. Because I was just like, why not?

All I have to do is click a button and just wait.

Denise: Yeah, yeah.

Steven: So that was really cool. And I thought, oh, this is like a really cool solution. That’s tech related that I didn’t necessarily implement, but I’m just running the process on it and like it’s helping Speed up this this law firm’s like a way of going about things.

That was cool But then this another memory and I think this one was a little bit more just like aha. This is what tech is about I I think that was the first internship I had at microsoft. I was I was I forget what the team was called, but basically we were building software for point of sales like devices.

So like think cash registers. And they had built All these things like built out all these APIs. APIs are basically like, these are functions that you can call and we’ll do certain things and but they didn’t have the documentation or an, or like just sample code to give the people to like give their customers so they can customize and build however they want to customize their cash registers.

And so my project that entire summer was just like, build a sample app. Create all these code snippets. And I remember when I was like trying like part of it was just like, I was just playing with the cash register and just like playing with, like writing these programs. And it was apparently super, super useful for like the software engineers that were way more senior in season to me to see this all in action, because I apparently was bringing fresh eyes to all of it.

And I think that that. I built like that opportunity to just be curious and to play with things and also create something felt very cool to me. And I didn’t understand or realize that like, that’s a part of the software engineering process is like also to create all these like example programs so that people can build from that.

And so that impact also like led me to realize that like, oh, I can build really cool things that are useful for like. other engineers. And so that aspect of play and also the revolutionary part of just like something so basic to me was a lot of fun to wrap my mind around and was a big catalyst for when I did get to university, like really focusing on like, I want to be a software engineer.

Denise: And that’s so important for like that career connected aspect. Like I can see myself in these spaces. I can see how I can either contribute, improve processes just by having a different perspective. And that. It’s going to be a value and it’s going to change how people work here, right? And I think that’s that’s huge.

Not a lot of kids get to experience that in their k 12, right?

Yeah,

Denise: kind of in that same vein How did that time for you? Like how would you compare your time with technical teens and that internship program with kind of your school experience. How would you compare those two?

Steven: School in the sense of like high school or school in the sense of like undergrad?

Denise: Yeah, like high school, like your k 12.

Steven: Oh, I found my time in TTIP to be a lot more fun for one. Also it was a lot more just like what’s the word? Like I felt like I had more permission to just be curious and to be myself. And to be silly versus like in high school, the high school I went to, can I say the high school’s name?

Denise: Sure. Yes. I went to Garfield. Okay.

Steven: Garfield at that time was like still really known for like it’s AP classes and whatnot. But what it really was good at was like structure and also memorization. And I felt like, oh, I knew I could figure out how to succeed there because I like, I It was really good at memorizing things at that time, but it didn’t really create a lot of opportunity for me to be collaborative with the other students, especially when we were doing like group projects, because it felt like, oh, there was a formula that we had to follow and we just had to follow that structure.

And if we got that done, then we would be like getting an A on that assignment and we can easily get like a 4 0. I think in my graduating class, there was like 30 of us that had like 4. 0s. Versus like a TAF, I got to be silly. I got to like try things. There was like full permission to just like try it out, see if it worked.

And if it didn’t work, you know, you like tried something else. So like the scientific method was like alive and well, and not just like alive and well, but pointed at one specific direction. Some of the projects that I remember like, I didn’t remember exactly what we built, but I just remember having so much more fun just coming up with things and then like building a proof of concept with some of my my classmates in TTIP.

And then we would just demo it like that aspect of just also demoing things was, I thought what like I thought was incredibly powerful because it was kind of like the foray into like all these times that since then that I’ve had to like demo things live or do public speaking or do anything that were revolved around just like.

Here’s what I worked on. Here’s what worked. Here’s what didn’t work. And here’s what’s next.

Denise: Yeah. Yeah We are really speaking to I think this whole episode is about pedagogy and how we approach learning, right? And so you’re really speaking to that problem based or project based learning experience where it’s like we have a problem What do we need to know in all in order to solve said problem?

How do we test that solution and then reiterate? Right. How do we change that to? to solve whatever the problem is, because it’s not as simple as that linear pathway as you described in sort of your traditional K 12 experience, right? So I think that’s like, Really the point of our work with TAP and now our work with schools is how do we shift that narrative to be more focused on how do kids kind of learn those skills of problem solving, collaboration, while still doing kind of, they have their standards and stuff like that, but how do they do it through that lens, as opposed to figuring out the formula of school, quote unquote, right?

How do I just play that game to get my points or if there’s somebody who’s like, That’s not really the way their their learning works or the way they they kind of figure out how to Show their learning and demonstrate it.

Steven: Yeah

Denise: that there’s multiple pathways for every kid, right?

Steven: Yeah Can I add something to that too?

So like I know that you wanted to know about like the education part for high school, but I think Like by the time I got to undergrad, I definitely did see like where the impacts were with being able to do project based learning. Because my peers that didn’t, weren’t a part of TTIP, they had a harder time adjusting the skills that we learned during high school, especially at Garfield around memorization and whatnot were useful to a certain extent.

But then when we started getting past the introduction classes, that’s when you could see like very visibly, like, Where they were having a harder time, but I was having a lot easier time because I was blending those two aspects together And so by the time I got into my program Into my major at UW Or start doing classes that were in my major that curiosity and that like willingness to like, oh Go to an office hour and just like ask the professor like hey.

Denise: Mm hmm.

Steven: I don’t get it Help. Help me please. That felt much more comfortable to me than some of my peers and I’m Speaking specifically to like my peers who I grew up with that were also kids of color who came from immigrant backgrounds who also had similar like parents situations as I did Versus some of like my like peers during undergrad undergrad who came from more affluent families and more white families.

Where like they also were comfortable doing that. And so I think TAF was big in helping fill that gap for at least me. To be able to like go into undergrad and figure out like, oh, I I can be successful here. I have, I feel more comfortable going and doing this. It didn’t mean that like it was a hundred percent like more comfortable, like I did notice like where I was just like, I can push this far, but then I like, Oh, this is territory that I’m not familiar with, but it was definitely a clear leg up that I had from having spent that time in TTIP and in my internships and around my peers who were equally as silly and as curious and like authentic during those, like, Long after school hours, there were days where those hours were really long.

Denise: It’s like I go to school and then I go to school, but it’s a different school, right? Very different kind of school, but like that ability to be authentic and that ability to like be entirely yourself while you engage in this learning experience is so critical for, you know, All kids, right? All students need to be able to be their authentic selves in order to truly learn.

Like we know that from a, from a cognitive standpoint too. Yeah, so so I think that is a major part of The type of environment we try to create not only in after school programs like like TTIP, but in all the work we now do with schools and with educators, right?

Steven: Yeah,

Denise: I think that’s really critical.

Steven: Actually, I had a conversation with Sherry. This was years ago, and I don’t know if people on the podcast will know who Sherry is.

Sherry

Denise: is, is one of our, our pillars here, who is our development and operations executive director. Continue.

Steven: I had a conversation with Sherry years ago, where I was just like, Sherry, I don’t think you guys really emphasized at that time to us like how these soft skills were going to actually translate to to like the real world but you guys Basically taught us what it looked like to find our voice and have a seat at the table And be able to like hold our own and all of that while also preserving like that aspect of our humanity Which is like our backgrounds our diversity and whatnot So that such that like when we did come into the space we were able to stand on that You Even if it meant that like we still needed to work on a little bit to figure out like how do we really really?

Ground ourselves in that.

Denise: Mm hmm.

Steven: So

Denise: especially as you navigate a Workforce like Seattle, especially right? Oh, yes. Yeah, I was weird. Yeah. Yeah, right So all that I think like that’s so critical and and a big part of why I think taffy’s and founded in the first place I think So you spoke a little bit earlier about how you felt like your experiences with TAP influenced your career path.

Came back to be a board member Can you tell us a little bit more about why why you are a board member now and why you’ve you’ve stayed for so long

Steven: Yeah that’s a good question. Well one time kind of blends together and you kind of lose track of it.

Denise: Valid

Steven: But I think part of it too was that like that whole aspect I mentioned earlier about the trajectory of everything like it was Really really important for me to come back and do something to kind of help Make it full circle for me.

Like I have a. Undefined amount of gratitude and indebtedness towards TAF because of how they’ve impacted not just my life, but also that of my siblings. And as a result after that, like my younger cousins after that and really also gave my parents the voice and knowledge to help the communities that they were in to tell their friends of like, how does financial aid work?

How does college admissions work? And all these other parts of it when it came to. growing up and like taking advantage of the education system and the opportunities here. And so being on the board to me, when I got asked if I would like to join, join, it felt like an opportunity to be able to give back.

But also like by the time that I got invited to join the board, I felt that I had built enough of a, network, a big enough of a network in my career, I had learned enough skills where I was hoping that like, I can help maybe solve some of the issues that the organization was running into as they were learning how to grow and scale and figure out how to tap into this like fun little world called CL’s tech scene.

But ultimately I also thought, I thought it was like a cool opportunity too because like I saw all these folks that like, We’re a part of the board. I saw their accolades. I was just felt compelled to be a part of that. Like that like think tank of folks that were trying to think of how can we take our experiences and contribute back to an organization that was trying to like better what education looks like, especially for the communities that they they serve.

So yeah, a lot of those reasons, probably more. I can’t think of all of them right now.

Denise: It’s valid. It’s fair. Well, I want to thank you for coming and sharing your story with us and all of your experiences and kind of highlighting those reasons why we do this work and for your continued involvement and support.

of TAFF. That is a, again, long storied history, and it is, it is rare that somebody will give that much of themselves and their life to a place and to a cause like that. So, just thank you very much from not only myself, but everybody in TAFF. here doing this and we just appreciate your, your time and your story.

Steven: Yeah, my pleasure.

Denise: So that was a lot of information and that’s because pedagogy is one of the most important factors when it comes to school transformation work. It can actually drive All the other six components of school transformation that we’re going to talk about throughout this podcast series.

And when your pedagogy is in alignment with all of your actions, your curriculum, your staff, and all those other components, that’s where you get to see like real. change happening for students and for teachers and for communities. So what are some of the first steps that a school or district can take to building a pedagogy that truly centers student voice, choice, and learning?

Short term goals can include adopting a true standards based instructional model where students and teachers know what the standards are and they have exemplars to measure against. In that space, and in that same way, thinking about what are the competency or performance based assessments that are based on the standards that can be done on a daily, weekly, monthly, or even longer term basis, and that includes how do we look at standardized assessments in a way that Focus on performance and mastery.

You can also think about how you incorporate student led learning through discovery and through discourse. Give students a chance to really spend time with content to figure out how they feel with it and how they can present their viewpoints and build meaning both individually and collectively. In a longer term sense, schools and districts can look at their bell schedules to create more time for learning and planning.

Sometimes 45 minute blocks may not be enough to do the level of depth of thinking that this type of pedagogy would really ask for. You can also build in systems and structures that support continued implementation of exploratory learning and to build space for that, not only in your schedule, but in teacher capacity.

And you can also look at your school schedules to. Look at how do we create space for innovative instruction activities that are good for the whole of the school and the community at large. Like, how do we get away from things like having specified PBL time when your pedagogy is focused on Project based learning practices.

So what, but there is a lot of things that have to be true for all of this to take place. So it can be done if we, A, have the willingness to move away from focusing solely on standardized tests from the state level and Focus on performance or competency based assessments. If we have high quality, extensive and continuous professional development for teachers and staff, including high quality racial equity training.

And if we have the willingness to use the technologies and tools that are available to us now to supplement learning and to facilitate learning. meaningful collaboration. With that, I want to thank our guests for this episode, Dr. Melissa Britt and Stephen Kwan for sharing their experiences with us and for talking about how important it is to build a student centered pedagogy for not only all of our students, but to help improve our kind of community at large.

Trish: Thank you for joining us today, and we hope you learned something new. We invite you to tune in throughout the year as we dive deeper into each of the six components of school transformation, including what we’ve learned, what can be improved, and what conditions are needed to make that happen. We really do appreciate you being here with us and want to hear your feedback.

This work cannot be done without you, the listener and advocate for public education. Make sure to like and subscribe via your podcast app. Then complete the episode survey on our website techaccess. org to share what you want to learn and hear more about in future episodes. Thanks for joining us and see you next time on Learn More.